Monday, May 25, 2009

Does Revelations say Jesus is Lucifer?

I was reading Revelations and was shocked to find the following quote in it:

Revelation 22:16

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

I looked up "Morning Star" and found that the Latin name for it is "Lucifer".

Lucifer is mentioned in Isaiah in a very negative light. It calls the king of Babylon Lucifer and says this about him in Chapter 14:12-20 (New International Version):
:

 12 How you have fallen from heaven,
       O morning star, son of the dawn!
       You have been cast down to the earth,
       you who once laid low the nations!
 13 You said in your heart,
       "I will ascend to heaven;
       I will raise my throne
       above the stars of God;
       I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
       on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]
 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
       I will make myself like the Most High."

 15 But you are brought down to the grave,
       to the depths of the pit.
 16 Those who see you stare at you,
       they ponder your fate:
       "Is this the man who shook the earth
       and made kingdoms tremble,
 17 the man who made the world a desert,
       who overthrew its cities
       and would not let his captives go home?"
 18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
       each in his own tomb.
 19 But you are cast out of your tomb
       like a rejected branch;
       you are covered with the slain,
       with those pierced by the sword,
       those who descend to the stones of the pit.
       Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
 20 you will not join them in burial,
       for you have destroyed your land
       and killed your people.
       The offspring of the wicked
       will never be mentioned again.

However the Christians who wrote the New Testament used the term Lucifer in a positive way to refer to Jesus:

2 Peter 1:19 NIV

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

On the other hand Wikipedia says at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer:

"In the Vulgate, Jerome translated "הילל בן־שׁחר" (morning star, son of dawn) as "lucifer qui mane oriebaris" (morning star that used to rise early).[19] Already, as early as the Christian writers Tertullian and Origen,[16] the whole passage had come to be applied to Satan. Satan began to be referred to as "Lucifer" (Morning Star), and finally the word "Lucifer" was treated as a proper name. The use of the word "Lucifer" in the 1611 King James Version instead of a word such as "Daystar" ensured its continued popularity among English speakers."

The Vulgate is early fifth century, Origen was born 185 AD, Tertullian was born 160 AD. but even before that Lucifer was associated with Satan, as quoted from Wikipedia again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer:

"The Jewish Encyclopedia states that the Lucifer myth was transferred to Satan already in the pre-Christian century, citing in support of this view the Life of Adam and Eve and the Slavonic Book of Enoch (29:4 and 31:4), where Satan-Sataniel (sometimes identified with Samael) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high", Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss."

This is interesting because it is clear that Jesus and the early Christians knew about the Book of Enoch and its contents, which were written 300 BC to 1st Century BC. That's where the whole idea of heaven and hell and the fallen angels originated, so you'd think they'd know that the morning star was associated with Satan. On the other hand if you ignore that book and the theology that goes with it and go with the original idea of what Satan was, that he was sent by God to test people, and to accuse them, then it makes sense that he is the one to decide who is good and who is bad in the final judgement. As far as I know no theology has this point of view, but it is interesting to consider!

As for me, I consider Revelations to be without truth- something made up to get people to be martyrs.

As an interesting side note, the Book of Enoch mentions 7 stars that have did not follow the instructions God gave them. It says in Chapter 18: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe021.htm

12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) ⌈for ten thousand years⌉.'

Contrast that with what it says about the seven churches that Jesus admonishes in Revelations:

Revelation 1:12-17 (New International Version)

I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Seeing as JewishEncyclopedia http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=248&letter=R&search=pauline says that Revelations is very Jewish in nature AND very anti-Paul, and because the churches he is addressing here are Pauline churches- it is interesting to speculate that maybe Revelations was saying that these churches had strayed from the path they were supposed to go and were therefore in danger of going to hell?

14 comments:

casey said...

Satan only has the name lucifer because he wants to be someone he is not. Yeshua is the true Morning star, but satan only uses false names to imitate and decieve.

GHOST69x said...

Everyone knows Lucifer is the first of the Fallen. It's not his false name, it's his real name. The reason why he fell was because he refused to bow down to man, as God commanded him. And then to prove that man is flawed and faulted, he tempted Eve with the apple from the Tree of Wisdom...and you know the rest.

Carmen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Carmen said...

Hi Ghost 69x

Did this story come from the same book that said Job should have given Lucifer part of his sacrifice to God?

Carmen

Anonymous said...

Jesus is Lucifer.

ekbaba said...

In 2 Peter 1:19 and elsewhere, the same Latin word lucifer is used to refer to the Morning Star, with no relation to the devil. However, in post-New Testament times the Latin word Lucifer has often been used as a name for the devil, primarily in fictional works.

Dont stick to just one or two or three sciptures or text in the Bible. Try to search for greek meanings, and how was the word used in the text. :)

Aaron said...

First of all, you are reading the wrong bible version. All newer bible translations, especially the ones with a copyright are taken from corrupt manuscripts such as codex vaticanus and the codex sinaiticus. The King James 1611 or the Geneva 1599 bible are much better. You can also get a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to look up the Greek and Hebrew words of the original text and their meaning that matches the King James. Get one printed before 2000 though as they have changed some things in the concordances printed after 2000. If you want examples of differences in the bible do a search or go to this site for a brief example of the thousands of errors found in the new version:

http://www.chick.com/information/bibleversions/comparison.asp

No where in the King James is Lucifer, or satan called the morning star. The devil wants to take that title along with all other of the Christ's titles but he is a liar and not worthy.

I hope this helps.

Anonymous said...

I agree with ekbaba. Watch how you interpret things. We can't sweepingly say that every time "morning star" is used in scripture that it is referring to Satan. We must consider the context it is in, both the literary context (verses around it) and the cultural context (original language, when it was written to whom, how would they understand it in Greek back then, etc.). Be careful what you read everybody!

Anonymous said...

hi

Toshi said...

I used to go to traditional Catholic church which protects Latin mass after Vatican II Council, but I found their anti-Semitic articles and started to think that Jesus was Lucifer who hated Israeli people and tried to destroy Judaism. I also think Jesus is Phoenix which had been sealed but came out of Temple of Solomon after reconstruction? Here is another one who thinks Jesus is Lucifer.
http://www.sciforums.com/Is-Jesus-Lucifer-t-29250.html

Toshi said...

I think 7 churches were Judaic churches, and those "who say they are Jews, and are not" were Jesus and Apostles, otherwise it does not make sense. John might have been confused since he thought Jesus was God.

Anonymous said...

Reply to Casey: who said Yeshua is the true Morning star, but satan only uses false names to imitate and decieve.
This is problematic in so many ways yet is a popular excuse for explaining Jesus calling himself the bright morning star.
First off: Star=angel Bright=top/main
Morning/sun god =Baal
Secondly and most important:
In symbolism the Morning Star represented Lucifer because it was the fallen arc of the planet Venus in the sky, therefore the fall of Lucifer was symbolized by the Morning Star's falling arc.
Therefore claiming both share the symbolism is to be totally clueless to what it represented and how it's still problematic to claim Jesus the archangel of Baal or to represent the fallen one.
Which brings us to point 3) Jesus is the first fallen claimed messiah, so when people say he came to warn of the thief while coming AFTER the writings and warnings of the fallen one then you have to use proper sequences to recognize the first imposter Jesus can't come first and say the next guy is the first imposter unless you like being totally deceived and allow it to happen so easily. How many of you had IQ tests that tested your ability to know sequences as in what comes next. Then you can see this as one big IQ test, many which failed to keep proper sequences straight.
For example the religion itself says watch for the converging of religions into one new world religion which is exactly how Christianity formed from many mystery religions, cults, all converged easily because they all shared similar sun worship and death cult ideology. So while they seek this to happen today they fail to see it happened in the ancient of days with the faith they already follow.
Ezekiel mentions Lucifer as one seen perfect till his iniquities are exposed, calling him the anointed (christ) cherub (guardian/Nazarene). The only prophet ever deemed perfect by fallacious accounts is Jesus and he was the only one deemed the anointed guardian so only Jesus could be the fallen son of perdition in Ezekiel. Acts 2:27 and 1Peter 3:19 Jesus fell to the pit (son of perdition)
Perdition-to fall to the pit.
Jesus was an image of a man placed higher then G0d as a god himself.
It doesn't get any clearer then that except when you notice the thousands of wars and over 50 million murders in his name doesn't make him prince of peace or a savior, he makes us fail.

Anonymous said...

Yes! Jesus is Satan - he introduced all the anti-Jewish dogma by claiming as Son of God or even God Incarnation in human form which is a taboo for any jew. So all his games and plays as Coming Back as Messaiah and the concept of Anti-Christ is to make believe the innocent and the gullible. Hell with Jesus!

Ken D. Webber said...

I would like to illuminate your mind by giving you the full story. Satan is NOT lucifer and lucifer is not a fallen angel. These myths derive not from the Bible but from Faust, Dante's Inferno, and ignorant Christians who've never bothered to do any research. Starting with the Hebrew we have a Canaanite allegory. This allegory was created to answer the question of where the stars go in the daytime. The 3 characters are Elyon The Sun (Sol), his son Shaher represented by the Planet Venus, and Elyon's wife Hel-el who represents the abyss of nothingness. Shaher attempted to steal Elyon's secrets by seducing his wife. Elyon caught Shaher in the act and in a fit of rage hurled him into the abyss of nothingness; which fertilized Hel-el's womb and gave birth to a new day. Every night the stars conspire with Shaher, the Lightbringer, to rule the sky, and every morning they are cast down in their pride, to the abyss, and a new day starts. In Isiah, someone is told to give this allegory as a taunt to a ruling Babylonian King, to inform him that he is filled with pride and will fall, just like Shaher. Shaher in Latin, is the daystar, the morning star, which is the Planet Venus. The Greek version is similar, it is the story of Prometheus, who steals fire, light, which is knowledge, from the gods and gives it to man. A lightbringer is someone bringing knowledge of the true nature of the gods to mankind. In English you call such a person a "TEACHER." There are good teachers and there are bad. So in Isaiah we have an example of a bad teacher. "Jesus" is an attempt by the Order of Melchizedek to promote their prosopopoeia by borrowing from the myths of Prometheus and other ancient tales and secrets. Jesus is NOT a real person, "he" is an allegorical character used to express the Order's universal truths and various secrets.